Scaling a 9-Figure SEO Driven Lead Generation Business with James Dooley

Mark A Preston: I really want to understand a bit more about your testing team, because that just whoa, some of the excites me, because if you don't test them, you don't know if it works. So what's, what's their day to day look like?

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James Dooley: So that's every single day is different every single day is different. So and there's times where they've got a lot of work on and I come in like a bully in a china shop. Oh, we need to test this and we need to test that and stuff like that. So every single day is different. Obviously, the algorithms are consistently evolving. So what we used to test, if you think of it what? We did testing and let's say eight months ago we could say this, and this works, but then when a new algorithm update comes along, we've got to retest everything again to see, is it still as prominent of what it could be? Now we've got we're tracking, I think it's 1. 6 million keywords. In total. So soon as something's happening with regards to any sort of like discrepancies with rankings have gone up and gone down, not just our own sites, even though we've got a lot of data for our own sites, we consistently tracking. What's happened here? What's happened there? And it could be anything from page speed, silo structure over optimization of keywords on the page not got enough topical authority over optimization of backlinks toxicity lacking in the EAT signals, and there's so many things that we, if I'm being 100 percent honest, Mark, there's two bits Up until this year, maybe the end of last year, I thought personally that these two things were just SEO myths. One of them was disavows and one of them was EAT, right?

 

And I thought it was just a sales pitch for people to come in and sell, we'll do a disavow. And I'm like, I've never needed. I disavow and I've, I got hundreds and hundreds of websites. So what I, this is garbage, this is rubbish. And then I then got a penalty, a manual action penalty last year. And I was like, whoa what even is this? So I looked into it further than you do a reconsider. I don't if you've ever done one, but you have to do like a reconsideration request to Google within Google Search Console. So the more we started digging into it, I started to think, wait a minute, this could start. This could start rolling out more and I own a lot of websites. So me being entrepreneurial, I'm like, who's the best person in the world that does disavows? And in my opinion, the best person in the world that does disavows, Rick Lomas, he's seen as being the godfather of disavows and getting sites back from link penalties. So I went and met Rick Lomas. And at the time, Rick Lomas had gone through a bit of a traumatic time. His wife had died and stuff like that. And he was saying, look. If I'm being 100 percent honest, I've got a daughter. I want to spend more time with my daughter. And I said, look, I want to get into this more.

 

So he says, I'll train you up. And I said, I'll give him royalties. Now we do majority, he still does some, but we do majority of Rick Lomas's disavows. And it's only now I start to see, but I was never in the market for that every single week. Manual action penalties being distributed out. I noticed that they're coming to us to fix the problems and we're going doing the reconsideration request back to Google. And actually when you've done one, you'll know if you've done one, when you go back to them. If they feel you've still got one, if you've not tried to outreach to get rid of the links, they don't revoke it. And two, if you don't disavow all what they see as being the toxic links, they'll come back and give you some examples. And sometimes these examples of links, there could be a DR65 site that's getting traffic on the naked eye when you look at it. Looks like a good sign. It's getting traffic and it's a DR 65 site. You go in. Why is that toxic? And then when you actually then only start to dig a bit deeper and uncover the last five posts that they've done, the link to casino, the link to CBD, the link to finance, and you go, ah, this is just a glorified PBN. And then that's when you then start to uncover and see stuff.

 

So the R&D team for that has been huge. And we've pushed the boundaries on what's needed and what's not needed for disavows. There's so many people, even without manual action penalties, that are sat in a partial penalty where they might be held back slightly, could be held back two or three positions across the whole site because they were above a toxicity threshold. And I never knew about it. And sometimes there's a classic saying, you don't know what you don't know. And I always thought. I've never been penalized. And there's times we've done proactive disavows and seen big jumps and we've gone, wow, we was being held back, no messaging, Google search console, nothing. And we've had the jumps and we're like, wow, I didn't, we didn't know that. So that was one bit. And then the other one was, I used to think, I used to see like income school and one or two of us talk about EAT. And I used to be like, is this just another pitch for SEOs to sell EEAT and stuff? And then I got, we got a penalty at the start of the year. We had a Google news site that was talking about finance. So we do a little bit of lead generation on like pensions, equitability and stuff like that. And we got a penalty, a manual action penalty in Google search console for all for transparency. I was like, what even is this?

 

And it's a manual action penalty called Offer Transparency. And then from there, then we started to realize, hold on a minute, it is E, like EEAT is a thing. And we dealt, we've started to dig deeper into that now in making certain that, do you know what, like you can't really make any money out of EEAT as a service, but just getting those foundations of having an about us page, having to meet the team page. And I know that you are probably gonna laugh at this because you'll just say that's. What you should have always done, but just be like a real business. Do you know what I mean? Like having about a page, a meet the team page, a privacy policy page, a cookie policy page have an email address, a telephone number, an address on your website. So that if you didn't like something that was on your site. Or you'd used an image and it was copyright infringement. Can they easily get old of you? Because if they can't easily get old of you, what's going to start happening? They're going to start trying to take it further, not being able to get old of you. It's going back to your server and your hosting.

 

And it's just Google wants to know who's behind the website, both what author's written the article, and are they an expert in what they're talking about, and what business is behind the whole site. And. You're laughing, that's what you should have always done, but sometimes you're busy building outsides, you don't see the wood from the trees, and this is what I'm on about with regards to, I now just become like a clean white art SEO that just does all things, and I probably go belt and braces, I do an EDI policy, a modern slavery policy I go overkill, but I just go, I turn and tick every box, and it might cost me, 10 to get a modern slavery policy done. Do you know what I mean? It's nothing but for 200 to get all the policies done and put them on your website. You know your belt and braces then, they can't come back to you saying, you don't look like a real business. We are a real business. We've got a real address. We've got a real telephone number. Do you want to ring it? One of my staff will answer. We've got an email address. We've got a meet the team page with who's going to answer the calls. Because on some of the lead gen sites will put the clients on the site of who's going to be answering it.

 

So when they can see, they wanted to see the meet the team Mark Preston's going to answer it for SEO in Preston and they answer it and they go, I own UI, it's Mark Preston. They know who you are already. They've got that message match. So it's good for conversion as well. So it's not just for Google is for the user. And sometimes you're probably going to laugh at me because you'll say I already knew all that. And I'm like, maybe I was just a little bit naïve in where I was going with the business in trying to manipulate Google and not think about the user. But no, yeah. We know we're a lot more about, okay, can we have these behavioural signals where people are going to stay on the site longer? They're going to return to the site. They're going to like the site, but you could use experience about the site and just do things for the user. By doing that. You winning with Google because Google says, Oh, you giving good behavioural signals.

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Mark A Preston: Yeah. There's been an awful lot of sites hit over the past couple of months. But what's your thoughts about some affiliate marketers who are trying to Fake all these signals instead of just doing just putting on what's real, like I'm seeing a lot of sites. Is it right? Okay. I've been here. I've ticked this box. We've put this persona on, but they're not real people or real avenue.

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James Dooley: I don't think it's the right thing to do. But being honest, like I think, and I know people might, who's listening to this might not like me saying this, but if you're If I go and create a site with a fake persona and you can reverse engineer and reverse image look up that person, how many times has Mark Preston been mentioned online and are you an expert about dishwashers? And if you're not, and you've not written it, nobody else has mentioned anything about how you, not, you don't even need to be an expert like dishwasher, you could be, are you an electrician? Have you ever serviced them? Have you ever repaired them? Or at least, has Mark Preston opened up some of these boxes and done an unboxing and seen to be used one of these? Dishwashers. No. If you've not, I think Google's done that very, a good thing by, you know what? You probably not bought them 10 best washing machines. You've not bought all 10. You've not used all 10. All's what you've done is sorted by who pays the highest affiliate commission to who pays the lowest affiliate commission. I'm not a suspect. You deserve to be slapped. You deserve it because you've not got a real business. You've not got a real telephone number. You've not got a real email address. You're not a real person. And you know what?

 

You've not even bought them 10 dishwashers. So for that reason, in my opinion, and I know it sounds harsh, you deserve it. And I think Google's done a good job and affiliates won't like me saying that, but how can they? Start giving one person's this made up person, James Fitzgerald is an expert in washing machines. No, you're not. Like you're not an expert in it. So why should people listen to that? And people are moaning that Reddit and Quora have come up. At least Reddit 10 different people negotiating which one they think is best. And it's 10 real people that are at least arguing with I bought this Flymo 269 and I think it's better than the Flymo 217. I think that this law more is better than that one because, but I'm using it for, I'm on a farmer's field. Do you know what I mean? At least you're getting different people's opinions as opposed to Mark Preston who's written, who's done 10 washing machines and has gone, yeah, these are really good. Yeah. These are really good. Yeah. These are really good. And all 10 of them saying that they're all great. No, you, and they're using the same stock images as what everybody else is using and you're just like, come on, get a grip. Do you think that, do you, what's your thoughts on it, Mike? Do you think that they deserve to rank?

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Mark A Preston: No, the thing is, it's If you're trying to make something look real, then you're going to get found out. Yeah. The biggest example is of a story I heard is somebody just took a random image of someone that was actually well known for something and they found out and they got a massive copyright. That's a totally different scenario. Yeah. Yeah. Geez. For me, if you're looking for a certain thing, you want to know that if you're going to buy from that site, are they trustworthy? Do I want to open my wallet for them? Do I want to click it? It's just natural behaviour to, to want to understand that something's real.

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James Dooley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like prime example, what we do with our sites, cause you might say okay, so how are you in so many different industries? How are you an expert about carpet cleaning and an expert about casinos and an expert about finance? I'm not I'm a marketing person that builds a website, but then what I do is that I make certain that if I'm Have I'm generating leads in pensions. I'll make certain that I'm generating leads for someone that's a independent financial advisor. That's accredited in doing pensions. I will not build a site unless that person will allow me to use these details that will put his FCA license number on there. And every single piece of content that I write, he has to sign it off. Because if that content is not right, he'll get in trouble. So for us. It's hard work because we're not just scaling AI content on mass on some of these sites. So it's every single piece of content has got to get signed off and there's times I'm like, Oh, come on. You've been a bit picky there. And he's no, change that word and change that. And we've just got to do what they're saying.

 

So we're using real people. That if you pick up the phone, you're speaking to a professional pension advisor, right? And then if it's a carpet cleaner, it's someone that's had their own business for a dozen years, that's worked in loads of different jobs, like loads of different kind of, let's say they've worked for Marriott Hotels and doing all the carpet cleaning for Marriott Hotels, they've loads of pictures of them with their carpet cleaning machine, real pictures, so that when they, and not only that is when they turn up to sign. They see the same person that it's just a good user experience. So nowadays we just, like I said, it sounds very why I'm probably very boring for some, but like we just do things, we try not to trick Google. We try to make certain there's a message match. We try to make certain that the consumer that comes to our site, if they are buying gets exactly what they think they are buying and the speaking to a professional in whatever industry that it is.

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Mark A Preston: I want to take the conversation back in time, more on to the business side now. What moment in time did you personally think, ah, I've got something here I can scale?

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James Dooley: So the, what we, in construction, right? So I'll give you the, so the company's, the company where it first started is a company called Soft Surfaces Limited, right? So it's based in Wilmslow in South Manchester in Cheshire, right? And it builds. Playgrounds, tennis courts, netball courts, basketball courts, 3G football pitches like rugby pitches, all like different sports and recreation on playgrounds throughout the UK. So we, when we first started, we only did playgrounds and then we started to realize what we do, we could do tennis courts. So we moved into tennis courts, then we moved into netball courts, basketball courts. But then we realized that they wanted us to do the fencing. On the tennis court and was like we don't do that. We want to do the surfacing, but we can find a contractor that does it. So that when we found the contractor that does it, he was asking, could you get us more work? So then what started to happen is, and I call it shouldering niches or neighboring niches. We then built a website out for tennis court fencing, right? Then some of them wanted floodlighting. So then we built one out for floodlighting. So we was getting them inquiries. And then what started to happen, but we was only really doing it. So we got the inquiry for the tennis court as well, but sometimes then some of them just wanted fencing. And we're like, Oh, you don't want a tennis court? No, we just want the fencing.

 

So at that point, I'm like, I need to monetize these in some way. So I just then started saying, look, if you can add us 200 quid on top of your job and give us a kickback on the job and you go and win it happy days. And then we started like the soft services grew from I think it does about 8.5 million a year now on soft services. And we don't really want to grow it much more than that. It's a threshold of where it's at, but it was only at 600,000 years. We've grown it like ridiculous amounts over, over the last 13 years with more than 10 X day. But then we started to realize we're making more money on selling the leads. Like for tennis court fencing, for floodlighting, for landscaping, for tarmac surfacing. And then it led on to people saying, oh, can you do car parks? Can you do the markings on the car parks? Can you do roadways? Can you do the markings on the roadways? Can you do and it just led on then to like being like from there then anything that a school was asking because we mainly deal with schools and colleges and universities. They started oh, join one that does roofing or join one that does cladding, join one that does double glazing windows. So we just started evolving from there that the model of the lead generation and what we was earning, we was like, if we could generate roofers. leads.

 

But then when they went into the school, they tried to promote us for a playground, happy days. And they was trying to get ins just to get into the schools. But then we started to realize, actually, we make it quite a lot just on these reefing leads. So what else is it that you do? And they might, and a reefer might come to us going, we do. Flat roofing, you go right, okay, let's build a site for flat roofing, we do biodiverse roofing, we do heritage roofing, we do slate roofing, we do pitched roofing. And we're like, bloody, I didn't realise how many different types of roofing kind of leads that you can generate. So that's how it evolved. It, we never set out to do it. It just evolved that way, if that makes sense. So what I would recommend if someone wants to get into the lead generation market, stay close to what you do. So let's say yourself, like you do an SEO and you want to do a full package SEO, maybe get into doing content writing and it needs to be link building or doing digital PR or doing other things that all kind of circle around what SEO is. And when you get those leads, it could revolve back to being. SEO. Do you know what I mean? Or it could be that someone wants Facebook ads and you go, why do you want Facebook ads? I want to grow my online presence, but you should put some budget to SEO. So for you ranking for Facebook ads, could you get you SEO work and stuff like that? So that's evolved. And then from there, then it. Yeah, the lead generation overtook what the construction does and now I only spend like maybe one, two hours a month in the soft services side. We've got great staff in there now and yeah, they're able to maintain where it's at, which is like I said, eight to nine million a year, which is good.

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Mark A Preston: It certainly is. Now, just. Hearing you there, some of the industries or super niches you're in that sort of stuff you can't find from the generic SEO keyword tools. So what, how did you come up with that particular?

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James Dooley: So let's say the roofing, for example, you create a roofing site and you just go, Oh yeah, I do roofing leads. But then when you, when they start digging deeper into it, you start realizing the it's like someone says to you, you do SEO, but actually if you're, if you open the book of what SEO is, there's a million different things within SEO of what you can do. What do you mean? Do you build websites? Do you do the silo structure? Do you do the do you write the content? Do you do the link? So like, When you uncover something, when I just thought roofing was roofing and then you start to uncover it and you're like, wow, there's so many different elements. And like a good example was one where we had a plumber, right? And he was paying us about, I think it was about 800 a month or something like that. It might have been 500 a month. And then one month he comes along and he gives us like a few grand. And it was like, Oh, what's that for? He said, Oh, we're just in a wet room. Mike. I didn't even know he did wet rooms. He's yeah, of course we do wet rooms. He says wet rooms are way better than shower rooms. So I was like, why? He says, because generally speaking, a shower room is what you have in a house. A wet room is what commercial like gyms and stuff off and gyms and commercial properties are willing to pay more money. So I was like, you've never told me this before.

 

And his response was, you've never asked. I'm like, I've asked for all the key word. He went, yeah, I didn't think about wet rooms. I'm like, you just told me it's a really profitable product. But then when he goes even like one step further, like when you start realizing not every wet room supplier can do disabled wet rooms because the DDA compliance, like the door needs to be a little bit wider and you need the pull cards. You need an electrician to come and put the pull card in and stuff like that. So then when you can start going down the route of plumber. So like wet rooms to being disabled wet rooms, you're going really micro niche. But there's good money there. And yes, Ahrefs and Semrush are your generic kind of keyword tools, can't find you that information. And that's where you do need to speak to the client and you do need to understand what it is that makes you the money. And from what, like from one company to the next, like a boiler company, you speak to one boiler company and they might be obsessed with just doing new boilers, new boiler. But actually, this company over here might make more profit. By just repairing and servicing existing boilers, and it's knowing how their business model is set up to see what works better. Is it replacing the new boilers or is it repairs and servicing? Now, obviously, both could make money. But one's normally driven, one's normally set up to do one. And one's normally set up to do the other, because these are driven to be like, we charge a lot because we might do 24, seven call outs. So you've got to have staff that's on call at two o'clock in the morning. That if a boiler's broken, someone wants to ring them, they're going to send engineers out. So yes, you're right. And what you're saying, like the traditional keyword research. Can't be done for stuff like this. You've just got to be savvy and good at business and understanding what elements is it that they make the money on.

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Mark A Preston: So as far as your business model is concerned, what, why did you move from selling, generating and selling leads over to the, what you call rent and rank model?

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James Dooley: So some still do lead generation, right? But my issue is when you scale a business as big as what it is now, right? And this is no disrespect to anyone who's listening, that's a client or a customer, right? Generally speaking, clients and customers are nightmares. They want to know not only what you're doing, but why you're doing it and how you're doing it. They want to know every, everything. And the minute they're paying for a lead they feel like the employer. So what they start doing is they start ringing you up. Every single lead that comes through, if they don't answer. Hiya James I just had a lead there from Clive and he didn't answer so I'm not paying for it, and put the phone down. And it's a times app, it'll be like your sales stuff. Hiya James, you alright? I just had a lead and it says Donald Duck, I'm not paying for it. Oh, I've just had a lead and it says Mickey Mouse, I'm not paying for it. Online, sometimes you get fake leads, so you're having to put a management system in place for, you can't just charge per lead, it's got to be per lead that's they're happy to pay for, but having that structure put in place can be a nightmare, because then some of them go I spoke to these for 15 seconds, but they weren't interested. And then it's an argument. Should they pay? Should they not pay? And it's do you know what? It's easier at times to get to a point where they've worked with you for a while.

 

And normally, if I'm being honest, if let's say they was paying 3,000 a month on leads from us, we'll make it that it's 2,000 a month as a rank and rent. So it's cheaper for them, but I don't need my staff management. Like checking every single lead, listening to the calls to see whether it was a qualified lead or it wasn't a qualified lead having those arguments. And then you don't speak to them that much. They're really happy with what's happening. We're happy with it. And actually it's predictable monthly recurring revenue for a business, which is key, which then allows us to know how much we can spend to keep growing that site. Cause we know we're earning 2000 by the month, but if it's three grand then 200 quid, then four grand, then hundred quid. It's difficult to manage because you don't know what cashflow you're going to be getting in and cashflow is king for a business. So when we can have a predictable kind of workflow of what we're getting in, that's why sometimes we change it over to a rank and my model, not all the time, but majority of the time we do. And the clients love it. And then we love it because we don't need to manage it as much.

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Mark A Preston: Have you never thought about approaching the percentage of sale value?

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James Dooley: So we normally start by doing that. But the only issue you've got with that, Mark, again, is you're a hundred percent have got to trust the client because that client could do a conservatory, right? And he could charge it out at 12 grand. How do I know what their expenses are for that 12, 000. So yes, you could, but then they could turn around and go, we only made 500 quid on that job. So I'm only going to pay you if it's 50 percent of their profit, 250 quid, where realistically they might've made free ground and could have paid you 1500 quid. So they're always trying to. It sounds tough, this, but a lot of people that want humans are within business. They want to feel like they've got a deal. So every time they've converted a job, they want to try and chip you down that little bit. And I don't like that model because Again, there's more conversations to be had with the client all the time, that how much we're going to get paid, we don't know, we'll have to convert it, we don't know it just becomes a hassle. It's, for some clients it works well. Normally when we first start with the client, we'll do it on that kind of model because It's a no brainer for the client because they don't pay for the website. They don't pay for the content. They don't pay for the leads. All that they pay for is a, is like a commission towards when they've converted a job and been paid. So it's great for them, but for us in time, we'd prefer to move to a paper lead model or ideally to in time to a rank and rent.

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Mark A Preston: For somebody that's just getting into the game and think they either want to do affiliate marketing or link generation or rank and rent or whatever it is, what should they be thinking about initially?

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James Dooley: First and foremost, they need to be good at knowing, they need to be good at SEO, because if they're not good at SEO, it doesn't matter whether you do SEO affiliate, display ads or rank and rent or lead generation. If you're not going to SEO, you're not going to rank. So there's no such thing as a not rank and rent model because no one's going to rent and not rank site if you get what I mean. So I would recommend, and I hate. It when people say fake it before you make it, because that's just scamming people. So you people go all gloomy and SEO and fake it before you make it go and win some clients and charge them a grand a month and just use their money to see and learn on the job. And I'm like, no I think SEO should be able to legislate having some regulations in place. I don't know how they do that, but this whole fake it before you make it. It's just pathetic, in my opinion. So I would. I would recommend someone to go and get a job within an agency and go and learn and go and learn how you rank sites like that have already an established company or go don't do SEO until you've got some money. Go and work like 12 hours a day, seven days a week. If you really want to learn it, go and work stacking shelves and save up money and go and buy some courses. Do not mean go and speak to yourself, go and get a consult consultation call with you and sit down for an hour and they'll learn more by doing that in that one hour.

 

And it might cost 500 quid or whatever you are for a consultation call. Go and get a consultation call with you who knows what they're doing and then try and start implementing. Keep implements on your own side and then See what you've done wrong and learn from it and go again, but you've got to be safe. You can't do it with no money. You can write content in your own time and stuff like that. But you still need to be doing directories or you need to be hosting your site and stuff like that. So there's certain things that you need to pay. It's not a freebie. So you might need to have a job. And in my opinion, I always say don't leave a full time job until you're earning double. What you're earning in your full time job in SEO, because you could quickly have what you're earning in SEO overnight with an algorithm update. It's not easy for people to do. Some people are can you train me up on what you do? Am I, it'll take you 10 years. And like it's difficult. There's so many different nuances from niche to niche and what works and what doesn't work. It's not easy. People like think that, oh, I've just been working nine till five, four days a week. And I've got a laptop lifestyle and, or four hour work week and stuff like that. I'm like, no, for six, seven years, I worked 12 hours, 14 hours a day for seven days a week. Before I had kids, I've got kids now, my life's a little bit different, but back then I don't think anyone would beat me on a work treadmill.

 

I do easily do 90 hours a week to all these people. They're doing 35, 40 hours a week. You got to say you want to be where I am, but not put the time and the effort in. It's like saying, I want to be a body builder, but they're not going to the gym. Do you know what I mean? It's hard. It's hard work. I don't, some people want me to say there's a magic pill that you can have, or there's a push button you can do. No, it's difficult. Go on, go and learn it. Go and do some courses. Go and speak to like yourself on a consultation call and then start doing it and learn along the way of what you're doing. Start off like an easy, neat shit. So if you're doing. Lead generation. If I was like, they say yourself, right? Doing lead generation, you might go I'm going to go and find five local companies in Preston, and I'm just going to do lead generation in Preston, and that's it. I'm not going to I'm not going to try Manchester, or Newcastle, or London, or bigger areas. I'm going to just do Charlie and Preston, and that's it. And I'm going to be an expert at lead generation in Charlie and Preston. And do you know what? You could probably get Build up to 10 grand a month in certain industries, just in Charlie and Preston in 10 different niches and you've got, you're on to a winner then, but don't think too big, just take baby steps and yeah it's hard, but then just maybe do what yourself does, where you go into like local meetups, which could be like a local WordPress meetup, it could be a local, like you came to search Birmingham, good. You're consistent. You're at the top of your game and you're doing consultation calls for people, but you're still going to all these events and learning every day because you understand that every day is a school day. So you're still trying to elevate yourself and be the better person that you can be. So all these others need to do that as well. They can't just sit down and learn from you because in two months time, you might have learned more things that you could have educated them on and they've just got to get up and network and develop that way, in my opinion. What's your thoughts? What would you tell someone who's first starting out? Would you be any different to what I've said?

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Mark A Preston: There's two, two things. I personally found when I've talked to people, one, they need to be realistic about their own skills and a lot of time did not, when you're asked certain questions did not. And two, is I always ask them before you jump ship, how, if you never earned a penny from doing what you want to do, how long could you sustain your life? Yeah, you know them are the two questions that I always ask that determine whether they are ready or not, Yeah, and so for me, it's more about them being honest with themselves And a lot of time, I spoke to a lot of people and they just can't be asked yeah Even if I give them a list of a blueprint of exactly how to print money He said, oh I can't because I need to watch Coronation Street tonight, so I think on that side, but the time is absolutely rocked on and it's been such an interesting chat, but I do want to ask, is there anything that you feel that you need to get out there or the audience need to know that we haven't covered yet?

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James Dooley: Just that it is a little bit harder than what people think. So when people are first, some people have been watching some of my podcasts and they've been going, I want to do what you do. And it's not easy. People are going to try to jump ship now from affiliate to do rank and rents thinking it's going to be easier. It's not easy. You still need a sales team to deal with the clients. Nothing's easy. Keep networking. I'd say the biggest thing that people need to work on with it within himself is You're going to fail and you're going to fail miserably at times. How quickly can you recover without feeling sorry for yourself because it's going to happen and there's going to be another algorithm update probably start of December because there normally is and people are going to get hit. How quickly can you bounce back from them failures? They're the best, they're the best like attributes to have. So if you can work on that yourself. You're going to progress, right? All the rest of the learning and stuff like that will come to you if you get that bounce back ability. And that bounce back ability, I think, is key. And you need to keep working on it because every day is a school day. It's a never ending industry. Never, it's always moving all the time. And that's the only thing I'd like to get out. It's not all sunshines and rainbows, so to say.

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Mark A Preston: Right, and on that note, where can people find you and what sort of conversations would you like to have with people?

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James Dooley: I'm open for all positive conversations. I don't like, I hate the negativity within certain people. I want it always to try and be a positive kind of conversation. I've got jamesdooley.com. Which on there will show a little bit about what I've done and it's got all my social media profiles on there. So I'm on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter I'm starting being a little bit more active on YouTube as well now. I'm trying to build out a personal brand now not a massive one, but just I feel with the. kind of advancements of AI, I feel like a personal brand is needed online. So I'm trying to now get my name out of there a little bit more, trying to elevate others and help others along the way as best I can. And enjoy the journey as well.

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Mark A Preston: James, on that note, Many thanks for joining me. 

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James Dooley: Thanks a lot, Mark.